I just got hold of one and I've got it apart on my bench already. I notice
the Samsung* HD in the machine looks like an industry-standard sized disk.

Can anyone point me to a site or give me some pointers about swapping
drives? I'd like to mount a 250GB, but if that's not possible, I'd at least
like to be able to do something like occasionally slap an IDE to USB adapter
on the internal HD to download all the files to a PC.

Does anyone know the file format on the drives?

I also noticed that the DVD drive cage itself was very warm, even though the
unit had been in SLEEP mode. My feeling is that it's not going to last long
generating that much heat when not is use. I was also surprised to see how
much grease they use on the VCR mechanism in areas that are clearly going to
be covered in dust after a while due to the fan sucking room air over that
area. Any comments about the unit's longevity will be appreciated while I
still have time to take it back.

TIA!@

--
Bobby G.

*The irony is that I bought the Panny to replace a dead Samsung DVD
recorder!

You can't. Google alt.video.dvd* for posts by myself if you want to know
why not ...

"Robert Green" <ROBERT_GREEN1963 (AT) YAH00 (DOT) COM> wrote

"Java Jive" <java (AT) evij (DOT) com> wrote

I found a thread

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.v...d/thread/d390c
c9b43d9f688/ff926dc815c1001c?lnk=st&q=upgrade+hard+drive+group %3Aalt.video.d
vd*+author%3AJava&rnum=2#ff926dc815c1001c

that said the HD's were Panny's UDF format, the same they use for DVD-RAM
and that any blank HD swapped in will be formatted to that standard. I have
a PC with a 5.25" format Panasonic DVD RAM drive with UDF drivers. I wonder
what happens when I hook the E75V's HD to the IDE cable on that machine?

I'll be happy if I can clone the disk via Ghost, which shouldn't really care
what disk format it is in, in the sector copying mode, but very well might.
I'd even be happy if I could swap in a blank HD, have it record a dozen of
so test shows, and then swap back the original and experiment on the drive
formatted by the E75V.

Have you tried that or know of anyone that has?

--
Bobby G.

"Java Jive" <java (AT) evij (DOT) com> wrote

OK. Found it.

<<Not realising this, I put the new 160Gb HD into the recorder (btw: the
jumpers must be set to Cable Select), and it instantly noticed I had a
different HD, and prompted me to format it, so I accepted. Not only did it
format at 80Gb as predicted by others here, but now it thinks that this is
its own true own love, sorry, its own true hard disk, and when I put the
original one back in, sees that as a stranger which must be formatted!>>

Thanks. All questions answered, just not what I was hoping for. I am glad
I didn't follow in your footsteps and see the dread "format" message for an
already full disk. There should be some sector copying program that
duplicates the hidden signature, but it's not worth the effort. My new
HDTV-GT OnAir USB device arrived today. Now I can just record straight to
the HD of my PC.

Thanks for the pointers.

--
Bobby G.

"Robert Green" <ROBERT_GREEN1963 (AT) YAH00 (DOT) COM> wrote

Probably, nothing, because the drivers will realise it's not a DVD-RAM and
lie doggo. At least, that's what happened when I tried it on mine. I have
a DVD-RAM compatible DVD-RW, and I would have been using either InCDv4 or
Panasonic's own drivers here:
http://panasonic.co.jp/pcc/products/.../download.html
(for a non-Panasonic drive like mine, the Panasonic-specific part of the
installation is disabled - KXLCB30A.EXE just installs UDF2).


The disks would have to be identical, or at least of identical numbers of
logical sectors, for a sector by sector copy to work.

Yes, as in the threads you've found and others ... In fact, I believe I was
the first person to post in ngs that I frequent, that the format was like
the one used on DVD-RAM.

Its lack even of a PC-compatible partition table means that there is no PC
software TIKO that can read it, with the possible exception of this, but
AFAIAA noone, not even the original poster suggesting this, has actually
tried it and reported back on it:

http://www.softarch.com/us/products/...utilities.html

Here is a quote from my original post concerning the format:

"""
But I found the string DVD_RTR_VMG0 occurring three times near the
beginning, each followed a while later by a directory listing of the
programmes I know to be on it. Searching the internet found this interesting
link, which suggests that the hard disk format is related to DVD-RAM format:
http://v3.espacenet.com/textdes?&DB=...&IDX=EP1041569
"""

After making that post, I found there are several difficulties with that
document:

1) IIRC, it actually wasn't the only one needed, as the format is a
subset of other formats described in other docs.

2) You can only save/print/download a page at a time, and they're each
many pages long. This makes it wearisome to retrieve documents into a
usable whole.

3) The patent system seem to rely mostly on verbal descriptions rather
than diagrams, which makes the meaning obscure. There are diagrams further
into the document, but I found it difficult to divine their meaning
unambiguously.

Previously, I had thought that it might be worthwhile writing a prog to read
stuff off the disk. In the dim and distant past, I've written similar kinds
of progs, so I wasn't entirely green as to what was involved, but at my now
more advanced age I tend to be more reluctant to invest time in projects
that won't yield a lasting benefit - I don't control what format Panasonic
use, so they could change it at any time, rendering the time spent wasted,
&/or if we're really lucky even decide to provide firmware that can use a
larger hard disk and write some sort of engineers' retrieval program
themselves to copy between them. Well, let's all keep asking them to, at
least! You never know ...

However, especially if you're younger, you might feel less protective of
your time. If so, I wish you every success, especially if you agree to post
any findings back here.

"Java Jive" <java (AT) evij (DOT) com> wrote

I'm just deliriously happy I left it alone. You've convinced me that
there's not much reward in divining their proprietary format. I read some
other posts that implied a file table was stored independently of the drive.
That's just too gruesome to debug and be confident of the result.

I'm going down a different route now. I bought an OnAir HDTV-GT but can't
get it to work on my system. A friend has recommended HDHomeRun instead.
I'll use the Panasonic for repeat shows via the TV Guide feature and record
specials and stuff I want to save to HD via HDHomeRun. I'll probably
*eventually* get the OnAir unit to work with a laptop, and its small size
and low power drain will be great for travel. But I might have to buy a new
dual-core high-end laptop to do it. Or I might just return it. )-: Why is
it? You buy just one new game or piece of HW and then the seemingly endless
upgrade mamba begins . . .

Thanks for all the info!

--
Bobby G.

"Robert Green" <ROBERT_GREEN1963 (AT) YAH00 (DOT) COM> wrote



I reckon that's bollocks. As indicated, I found three separate file tables
when examining the disk. With such redundancy, a fourth off-disk is hardly
needed.

It sounds as though it was written by someone confused as to how the machine
knew the drive had been changed.

I'm guessing here, as I can't be bothered to look up the details of the
ATAPI interface, but it seems safe to assume that every drive has an ID
string it can send in response to a specific query by the host machine. You
can see these in Windows Explorer by rt-clicking any hard disk and choosing
Properties, Hardware.

All the Panasonic would have to do would be to store that in some form of
CMOS or other non-volatile memory at the time of formatting, and query the
disk each time it powers up. If what comes off the disk doesn't agree with
what was stored, then the disk has been changed.

If it does, then the Panasonic can further query the format of the disk to
see if it recognises it (or possibly it also writes a signature sector which
it checks).

If either answer is wrong, then it prompts to format.

I don't believe it is any more complicated than that ...

"Java Jive" <java (AT) evij (DOT) com> wrote

IIRC, that poster talked about still seeing a file list from the old drive
appearing after the swap. While that kind of system isn't necessary for
redundancy, it's certainly useful if Panny wants to further inhibit end
users from changing out their hard drives.

Agreed. But I've also seen situations where I've changed out a DVD and
Explorer still shows the previous disk's volume name until I hit F5 to
refresh the view. I tend to take the report at face value. I'm just not
sure why that poster saw what they saw (or thought they saw!)

I agree that's likely *one* way they sense an IDE disk change, but it may
not be the only one. DVD's use multiple copy protection techniques, so it's
not unheard.

Agreed. If they've got their own file system, putting an ID key on the HD
is clearly not beyond their technical skills.

That may be good enough. I don't know of any way of spoofing that
information (whether signature, drive ID or FAT in memory checked against
disk. What prompts me to believe there may be more to it is that someone
reported that once restored, the drive behaved as if there was no free space
when there should have been and that further recording was inhibited.

In any event, we'll see what OnAir's HDTV-GT and possibly HDHomeRun have to
offer. I've just about given up on GT. After 12 hours of downloading,
reloading, patching, praying, putzing and hair pulling, it no longer locks
before the primary channel scan. Now, it locks up tight during the scan.
That's progress, I guess.

Thanks for the input and from saving my countless hours trying to restore a
disk I shouldn't have touched in the first place!

My next big issue is that all three DVD units I have taken apart recently
have been covered in dust. The seals on the doors aren't very tight and the
fans in the back of the records sucks dirty room air over the greased drive
rails and VCR cams and gears with a vengeance. I covered the vent slots on
one machine with some A/C filter material, but that didn't help much. In
fact, it seems to have INCREASED the flow of dusty air throught the DVD and
cassette doors! I may have to reverse the fan, filter it and perhaps add a
fan powered cooling plate. Bummer.

--
Bobby G.

"Robert Green" <ROBERT_GREEN1963 (AT) YAH00 (DOT) COM> wrote

No, this is what happens when, as per one of my posts in that earlier thread
('Panasonic HD Recorders - New info on HD format and service menu') that you
found, you just press and hold 'Stop' on the front panel to clear the format
message (though I believe strange effects like that can also happen if the
disk is very fragmented).

Also, if the Panny was logging the drive contents elsewhere, the following
techniques would fail, but, as I have shown, in fact they work ...

1) The technique I outlined in that thread for dubbing recordings
piecemeal from an old HD to a replacement.

2) The dodgy technique, which I'd rather not try too often, that I linked
somewhere in that thread, of pulling out the power-cord to the hard drive as
the format message is displayed, then agreeing to the request, letting the
machine hang on the attempt for a good while, and then switching it off at
the mains.

Later, this was how I reinstated my original disk. And in fact, later
still, when that got full again, and I needed to make more recordings before
I would have time to copy off the others (it was Christmas), I put in
another 80Gb disk that I happened to have free, and duly filled that up.
After copying off what I wanted from that, I used the technique again to put
back the original disk, and duly retrieved all the data off that.

So I still think this guy was badly confused, and that the Panasonic uses
the method I described. The dodgy technique works because the disk id is
written to the non-volatile memory despite the fact that the format actually
fails - a situation seemingly not anticipated by the firmware programmer -
so that next time the machine boots up, the ids agree, any formatting or id
sector is still there from the previous use, thus everything is ok.

Glad to have helped ...