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  #11  
Old   
Conor
 
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Default Re: OT: Hard Disk question - 02-15-2006 , 09:35 AM






In article <hAAIf.16130$7C3.13392@trnddc08>, Wes Newell says...
Quote:
On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 23:40:32 +0000, Conor wrote:

Single Raptors have been proven to beat SATA drives running in RAID 0.

Do you have a link for this test. I just don't believe it.
http://www.tomshardware.com/2006/02/...ends_performan
ce_lead/page7.html

No they weren't early SATA drives.

Summary:
http://www.tomshardware.com/2006/02/...ends_performan
ce_lead/page14.html


--
Conor,

Same shit, different day.


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  #12  
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Wes Newell
 
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Default Re: OT: Hard Disk question - 02-15-2006 , 10:52 AM






On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 14:35:03 +0000, Conor wrote:

Quote:
In article <hAAIf.16130$7C3.13392@trnddc08>, Wes Newell says...
On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 23:40:32 +0000, Conor wrote:

Single Raptors have been proven to beat SATA drives running in RAID 0.

Do you have a link for this test. I just don't believe it.

http://www.tomshardware.com/2006/02/...ends_performan
ce_lead/page7.html

No they weren't early SATA drives.

Summary:
http://www.tomshardware.com/2006/02/...ends_performan
ce_lead/page14.html

Well, I don't know what charts you are looking at, but this one clearly
shows the raid0 array kicking the raptors tail in min., aver., and max.
read MBps 129.3 to 86.9. And they didn't even post the raid0 write
results in the second chart. Only single drives with the raptor of course
winning that by not much of 85 to 71 MBps.

http://www.tomshardware.com/2006/02/...ead/page8.html

The next one they show with both in it is the interface performance where
the raid 0 beats the single raptor soundly again 164 to 126. Even other
single sata 300 drives beat the raptor in this since it's still a standard
sata 150 drive.

The raptor did marginally win the sysmark app test, but that's not a good
benchmark for drive performance. And if you based it the winner on that
benchmark you're just fooling yourself. And the cost of the Raptor is
rediculous. I like the way they spun the so called win;

"The Raptor-X's performance is even good enough to beat a RAID 0 array
consisting of two modern 7,200 RPM drives, except in terms of pure
throughput, of course."

The raptor won one appalication benchmark by a small margin and 0 actual
drive throuput benchmarks. The spin doctors at work.:-)

--
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  #13  
Old   
Cal Vanize
 
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Default Re: OT: Hard Disk question - 02-15-2006 , 09:31 PM





Bill wrote:

Quote:
Wes Newell wrote:


http://www.tomshardware.com/2006/02/...ends_performan
ce_lead/page7.html

Summary:
http://www.tomshardware.com/2006/02/...ends_performan
ce_lead/page14.html

Well, I don't know what charts you are looking at, but this one clearly
shows the raid0 array kicking the raptors tail in min., aver., and max.
read MBps 129.3 to 86.9. And they didn't even post the raid0 write
results in the second chart. Only single drives with the raptor of course
winning that by not much of 85 to 71 MBps.

http://www.tomshardware.com/2006/02/...ead/page8.html

The raptor won one appalication benchmark by a small margin and 0 actual
drive throuput benchmarks. The spin doctors at work.:-)


I think he just did what many people do...skip the serious tests and all
the numbers, read the conclusions at the end and just assume whatever is
said must be true.

I agree with him that the Raptors are fast. There's no argument there.
But they would only beat a RAID 0 array if they too were in a similar
RAID setup.
I have a system that runs a RAID0 array using two WD160JS. Cost of
these two drives is about the same as a 74gb Raptor. Rest of the system
is a Gigabyte K8N51GMF-9, 2x512 Corsair XMS CAS2, 3700 San Diego o/c'ed
to 2.5ghz (obviously more an office machine than a game machine) I have
very little lag in anything that is i/o dependent.

I can't compare it head-to-head with with Raptor machines, but the
computers I've used with Raptors don't compare.

That said, my next system will likely use three or four drives in RAID0
to take full advantage of even more powerful processors. There may be
some increased risk, but we all need to regularly back up our important
data.

I usually take ANY review with a grain of salt but do compare measured
results. I also compare any reviews from Tom's to those on AnandTech.
I don't often trust manufacturer's cnumber since they just might tend to
be a little biased.




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  #14  
Old   
Cal Vanize
 
Posts: n/a

Default Re: OT: Hard Disk question - 02-15-2006 , 10:49 PM





Bill wrote:

Quote:
Cal Vanize wrote:

That said, my next system will likely use three or four drives in RAID0
to take full advantage of even more powerful processors. There may be
some increased risk, but we all need to regularly back up our important
data.


If you want to use 4 drives, I would recommend running a RAID 0+1 setup
where you get the best of both worlds - high data rates and mirroring
for data integrity.

Nope. Going for speed. 0+1 only provides the same speed as 0. Four
drives in RAID0. The only point where the speed would be the saem is
the initial access since seek time isn't helped by dividing the load
across multiple drives.


Quote:
I usually take ANY review with a grain of salt but do compare measured
results. I also compare any reviews from Tom's to those on AnandTech.
I don't often trust manufacturer's cnumber since they just might tend to
be a little biased.


What annoys me is that Tom's used to have good honest reviews. Take a
look at some of their reviews from 2000-2003 about disk tests, and
you'll get completely opposite conclusions.

In fact, I seem to recall an article about RAID 0 double drives verses
single, and they showed how the RAID 0 doubled the data transfer rates.

I think it's obvious they have an agenda to make money and don't care
about honesty or integrity anymore.
I wouldn't go that far. They might be doing as a lot of other
organizations have been by providing draft reviews to the manufacturers
involved. It can help keep them from forking out more in legal fees and
damages than they could possibly make from advertising.

Under any circumstances, I only look to actual measured results and only
glance the editorial comments to see if there are failures, installation
issues, compatibility problems or if the product falls below expectations.

I guess this comes from 50 years of having to read past manufacturer's
"claims".



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  #15  
Old   
Cal Vanize
 
Posts: n/a

Default Re: OT: Hard Disk question - 02-18-2006 , 11:23 PM





Bill wrote:

Quote:
Cal Vanize wrote:


If you want to use 4 drives, I would recommend running a RAID 0+1 setup
where you get the best of both worlds - high data rates and mirroring
for data integrity.

Nope. Going for speed. 0+1 only provides the same speed as 0. Four
drives in RAID0. The only point where the speed would be the saem is
the initial access since seek time isn't helped by dividing the load
across multiple drives.


What kind of stuff are you doing that benefits from a 4x drive system?

I'm running a RAID 0 with two drives right now, and while raw transfers
to/from the disk are substantially faster than a single drive, not
everything is twice as fast - for obvious reasons.
Nothing special. Office apps, browsing, newsgroups, email, a few
lightweight games. Its just that load times are next to nothing, file
read and write times are just really quick.


Quote:

What annoys me is that Tom's used to have good honest reviews. Take a
look at some of their reviews from 2000-2003 about disk tests, and
you'll get completely opposite conclusions.

I wouldn't go that far. They might be doing as a lot of other
organizations have been by providing draft reviews to the manufacturers
involved. It can help keep them from forking out more in legal fees and
damages than they could possibly make from advertising.


If they didn't lie about their reviews, they wouldn't have legal issues.

:-)

Check out the legal actions initiated by Bose if you think that being
honest prevents law suits.




Quote:
Under any circumstances, I only look to actual measured results and only
glance the editorial comments to see if there are failures, installation
issues, compatibility problems or if the product falls below expectations.


Same here. Too often I read "conclusions" that grossly conflict with the
test results. I sometimes wonder if the reviewers actually know what
they're doing.


I guess this comes from 50 years of having to read past manufacturer's
"claims".


Fifty years?!? You old fart!

Welcome to the golden years. When the kids come back home and they want
you to feed and clothe them again.
Not that I've been involved very long, but I had an original IBM PC with
a VERY LOW serial number that only could handle single-sided 160k floppy
drives. Bought it new BEFORE the double-sided floppies were available.

Old fart? Yeah, pretty much so. Kids are finishing college in the next
year or so. But if you've ever bought anything on the net, you've
likely used a technique that I either invented or worked on.




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  #16  
Old   
Cal Vanize
 
Posts: n/a

Default Re: OT: Hard Disk question - 02-19-2006 , 02:26 PM



Bill wrote:

Quote:
Ahh, so you're just looking for maximum speed.

I've been considering adding two more drives and going with a striped
and mirrored setup. Since drives are so inexpensive now, running a
couple more drives to keep everything safe is easy. I don't think I'd
really benefit from a 4 disk RAID 0, but cutting backups to a minimum
would be nice.

Not that I've ever had a hard drive fail. I guess I've always sold the
systems and upgraded before they got too old. The longest was four years
for the P4 I was using just before I bought this system.
Rather than doing RAID1+0, you could opt for an inexpensive IDE drive to
use for back-up of your data. Periodically copy all of your data to the
back-up. A lot cheaper and easier to manage. There is an extra
possible benefit of putting the swapfile in a small first partition of
the new drive. That space has faster access and read/write speed. The
rest of the drive won't be accessed very much so it won't interfere with
other access.

Since reand and write speeds are a lot slower than the interface speed,
the fact that the transfer is across the IDE channel won't slow the system.


Quote:

Oh no...don't get me started on Bose.

shudder
They are THE WORST!!!


Quote:

Oh, so YOU'RE to blame for all this!

Nope. Not all my fault. I only worked on a few methods of securing
e-commerce. I've been appropriately punished for that.




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  #17  
Old   
Mark C.
 
Posts: n/a

Default Re: OT: Hard Disk question - 02-19-2006 , 02:47 PM



"Bill" <bill@c.a> wrote

Quote:
I've been considering adding two more drives and going with a striped
and mirrored setup. Since drives are so inexpensive now, running a
couple more drives to keep everything safe is easy. I don't think I'd
really benefit from a 4 disk RAID 0, but cutting backups to a minimum
would be nice.

Not that I've ever had a hard drive fail. I guess I've always sold the
systems and upgraded before they got too old. The longest was four years
for the P4 I was using just before I bought this system.
In my experience 99% of problems that necessitate an image restore
have nothing to do with drive failure. It's stuff like botched software
installs and updates, driver installs and updates, viruses etc, none of
which are recoverable with RAID1. The corruption or whatever
simply gets copied to the mirror.

It's much better to use a second set of drives for a periodic image
backup, using Ghost or other imaging software.




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  #18  
Old   
Cal Vanize
 
Posts: n/a

Default Re: OT: Hard Disk question - 02-19-2006 , 08:42 PM





Bill wrote:

Quote:
Cal Vanize wrote:


Rather than doing RAID1+0, you could opt for an inexpensive IDE drive to
use for back-up of your data. Periodically copy all of your data to the
back-up. A lot cheaper and easier to manage.


I've considered that too, but I'd like to be able to disconnect it when
it's not being used to reduce wear and tear. So I also considered using
an external drive and connect it when needed.

Don't know which option I'll go with yet...
Sounds like you could build a USB drive using an inexpensive IDE drive.
With the speed of USB, you wouldn't have to worry about a fast drive
or big cache. Saves a few dollars.




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