Please help with dead system

#51

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc Trent <none (AT) dev (DOT) nul.pissoff> wrote:

Quote:

On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 19:00:57 -0500 Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com
wrote in Message id: <bbc4m2pbkopd02l318ptcpqd7f1b5qnt1i (AT) 4ax (DOT) com>:

On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 07:06:54 -0500, Trent <none (AT) dev (DOT) nul.pissoff
wrote:
On Sat, 18 Nov 2006 19:00:43 -0500 Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com
wrote in Message id: <0b5vl2ddh90fa7ba8gtd6kcp280e7gsksh (AT) 4ax (DOT) com>:
That is definitely false. I have pretty extensive experience on HP's
Business Desktop line, and every one of them will give you a beep code
(3 beeps) if there is no processor installed in the system. See page
A-13 from the following document:

http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport...Fc00368814.pdf

I'd be curious to see a schematic of this motherboard, most likely it's a
simple watch dog timer which is triggered after a certain period of bus
inactivity. These are not the beep codes as referenced by the BIOS
manufacturers.

Uhh.. if they aren't "beep codes" than what the heck do you call it
when the system gives a beep in a specific sequence? I don't have the
wiring diagram for how it works, but for all practical purposes it IS
a POST beep code.

What part of "These are not the beep codes as referenced by the BIOS
manufacturers." flew over your head at mach 1?

In addition, it is not a true POST code. You DO know what a POST code is,
don't you? Concentrate on the "ST" part of "POST."

In any case, the OP in this thread's system is not an HP desktop it is a
homebuilt, and will not output POST beep codes if no CPU is present.

And why not?! There's nothing magical about HP's systems. Ok, the
link listed above uses the custom HP BIOS, but other HP systems using
Award BIOSes also give the same beep codes. I know some current Asus
boards can also detect that a CPU is not detected and play a voice
message saying as much.

Why don't you point out on any BIOS manufacturers support web page where
there is a beep code for a missing CPU?

Do you honestly think that a traditional POST beep code can be generated
when no CPU is present and no code can be executed?

You don't get it, do you? The 8042 has its own firmware and it is
not part of the system BIOS....

Arno

#52

On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 03:18:38 GMT,
a?n?g?e?l (AT) lovergirl (DOT) lrigrevol.moc.com (The little lost angel) wrote:

Quote:

On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 19:00:57 -0500, Tony Hill
hilla_nospam_20 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote:
??? Uhh, care to point to some "specification" for sig delimiting?!
----------------------------
Tony Hill
hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca

RFC 2646 (on format=flowed etc) includes:

4.3. Usenet Signature Convention

There is a convention in Usenet news of using "-- " as the
separator
line between the body and the signature of a message. When

generating a Format=Flowed message containing a Usenet-style
separator before the signature, the separator line is sent as-is.
This is a special case; an (optionally quoted) line consisting of
DASH DASH SP is not considered flowed.

Sorry! =X

Hehe, no problem L'Angle. I stand corrected, this does indeed seem to
standard covering sig delimiting, I stand corrected.

Should be fixed now.
--
Tony Hill
hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca

#53

On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 20:57:22 -0500, Tony Hill
<hilla_nospam_20 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> put finger to keyboard and composed:

Quote:

Do I honestly care about a "traditional POST" beep code? I'm talking
about the REAL WORLD of today! I don't care what the IBM XT or AT
did, because they haven't existed for ages!

The fact of the matter is that MANY systems will give some form of
beep, LEDs or voice command if a CPU is missing during their power up
self-test.

<snip>

Quote:

Just in case you forgot what this discussion was all about, here is
exaclty how it started:

http://groups.google.com/group/comp....1d990701839d94

quote
One thing you may try is removing the CPU and see whether you
get beep codes. If you do not, then the mainboard is likely
broken.

If the CPU is not present or is not working, then you will not get any
beep codes.

That depends entirely on the system and how the CPU failed. Some
systems will beep if they do not detect a CPU, others will not. Of
those that will beep if a CPU is not detected, they *might* beep if
the CPU has failed or they might not. Beep codes are (usually)
handled entirely by the motherboard with no CPU intervention.
end quote

And there's the problem. If you had intended to mean that BIOS beep
codes do not require a CPU, then that is clearly absurd. If OTOH you
had intended to mean that certain low-level "pre-POST" checks could
produce a beep in the absence of a CPU, then this is clearly an
exception to the norm. Words such as "many" and "usual" are
inappropriate, to say the least. Instead the OP should proceed on the
more reasonable assumption that the motherboard will be inactive
without a CPU. I'd hate to think that he could end up tossing a board
simply because it was one of those 99.9% that needed a brain in order
to beep, blink, or talk.

Quote:

Now, I've already provided you with MANY examples of systems that WILL
produce beeps, LEDs or even a voice response if the CPU is not being
detected, so really the proof is in the pudding.

You've provided *one* example ... maybe.

As for those motherboards that can talk, I confess I have no
experience with these. However, I found the manual for an Albatron Via
motherboard which has a Voice Genie chip. I notice that the voice chip
can be enabled or disabled via the BIOS setup. This suggests to me
that the status of the chip would need to be fetched from CMOS RAM (or
perhaps the flash BIOS) at power-on. Only a working CPU (and BIOS
code) could do this. The only other [unlikely] alternative would be a
user configurable area within the voice chip itself.

As for the blinking LEDs, I've suggested on two occasions that they
could be attached to a standard diagnostic port at 80h (such as is
used by POST cards). I've even provided a simple DOS method to confirm
or disprove this.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

#54

On 21 Nov 2006 00:22:55 GMT, Arno Wagner <me (AT) privacy (DOT) net> put finger
to keyboard and composed:

Quote:

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote:

On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 07:06:54 -0500, Trent <none (AT) dev (DOT) nul.pissoff
wrote:

On Sat, 18 Nov 2006 19:00:43 -0500 Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com
wrote in Message id: <0b5vl2ddh90fa7ba8gtd6kcp280e7gsksh (AT) 4ax (DOT) com>:

I'm not aware of any either, the keyboard controller seemed like a bit
of an odd comment from another poster. The only connection I'm aware
of between the POST error beeps and the keyboard controller is that
some BIOSes will blink the LEDs on a keyboard to signify certain error
codes.

Ah, no. The keyboard controller is the prime suspect, because it is
a small computer of its own on the mainboard. The only ''intelligence''
besides the main CPU, so it would be easy to have the "CPU missing"
detection in its software (which is in a ROM contained within the chip
or in the ASIC today).

Yes, it would be easy, but you haven't produced a single example of
where this is actually done. And that's what counts. Until you can
produce one real world example, your idea remains just an idea.

Quote:

The MCU inside the keyboard is actually still another controller.
The keyboard controller sits on the mainboard.

In your original post you stated that "the beep codes are produced by
the keyboard MCU and that will beep a 'CPU not present' if it is not
contacted by the CPU after a certain time".

After pondering this statement, it occurs to me that it cannot
possibly be correct. If the keyboard MCU "is not contacted by the CPU
after a certain time", then it has no way of distinguishing between
any of several possible causes including "CPU not present", "CPU
dead", "BIOS chip missing/corrupt", or "bad flash".

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

#55

On 21 Nov 2006 13:25:08 GMT Arno Wagner <me (AT) privacy (DOT) net> wrote in Message
id: <4sgd1kFvd2f2U4 (AT) mid (DOT) individual.net>:

Quote:

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc Trent <none (AT) dev (DOT) nul.pissoff> wrote:
On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 19:00:57 -0500 Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com
wrote in Message id: <bbc4m2pbkopd02l318ptcpqd7f1b5qnt1i (AT) 4ax (DOT) com>:

On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 07:06:54 -0500, Trent <none (AT) dev (DOT) nul.pissoff
wrote:
On Sat, 18 Nov 2006 19:00:43 -0500 Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com
wrote in Message id: <0b5vl2ddh90fa7ba8gtd6kcp280e7gsksh (AT) 4ax (DOT) com>:
That is definitely false. I have pretty extensive experience on HP's
Business Desktop line, and every one of them will give you a beep code
(3 beeps) if there is no processor installed in the system. See page
A-13 from the following document:

http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport...Fc00368814.pdf

I'd be curious to see a schematic of this motherboard, most likely it's a
simple watch dog timer which is triggered after a certain period of bus
inactivity. These are not the beep codes as referenced by the BIOS
manufacturers.

Uhh.. if they aren't "beep codes" than what the heck do you call it
when the system gives a beep in a specific sequence? I don't have the
wiring diagram for how it works, but for all practical purposes it IS
a POST beep code.

What part of "These are not the beep codes as referenced by the BIOS
manufacturers." flew over your head at mach 1?

In addition, it is not a true POST code. You DO know what a POST code is,
don't you? Concentrate on the "ST" part of "POST."

In any case, the OP in this thread's system is not an HP desktop it is a
homebuilt, and will not output POST beep codes if no CPU is present.

And why not?! There's nothing magical about HP's systems. Ok, the
link listed above uses the custom HP BIOS, but other HP systems using
Award BIOSes also give the same beep codes. I know some current Asus
boards can also detect that a CPU is not detected and play a voice
message saying as much.

Why don't you point out on any BIOS manufacturers support web page where
there is a beep code for a missing CPU?

Do you honestly think that a traditional POST beep code can be generated
when no CPU is present and no code can be executed?

You don't get it, do you?

You really are a complete fucking imbecile, aren't you?

Quote:

The 8042 has its own firmware and it is
not part of the system BIOS....

No shit, fucko, I never said it was to begin with. Christ, you're a thick
one.

Your original statement: "The beep codes are produced by the keyboard
MCU and that will beep a "CPU not present" if it is not contacted by the
CPU after a certain time." is false.

The beep codes are NOT produced by the keyboard in ANY design I've ever
seen. And I've seen a lot of them, and debugged them to the component
level on our own designs. Unless you can show me a reference design
schematic where the keyboard controller has this function, or a BIOS
manufacturer's web site that shows a beep code for a missing CPU, go back
to flapping your recessed jaw in that thread about capacitors - a subject
where your knowledge is only somewhat below par.

#56

On Fri, 24 Nov 2006 15:32:40 +1100 Franc Zabkar
<fzabkar (AT) iinternode (DOT) on.net> wrote in Message id:
<i8scm2l4j28ebh46gbroh87uo452q090v8 (AT) 4ax (DOT) com>:

Quote:

In your original post you stated that "the beep codes are produced by
the keyboard MCU and that will beep a 'CPU not present' if it is not=20
contacted by the CPU after a certain time".

After pondering this statement, it occurs to me that it cannot
possibly be correct. If the keyboard MCU "is not contacted by the CPU
after a certain time", then it has no way of distinguishing between
any of several possible causes including "CPU not present", "CPU
dead", "BIOS chip missing/corrupt", or "bad flash".

Or, as I said to Tony, you could pry every other chip off the motherboard
and get the same result. IOW, completely meaningless.

#57

In article <d6onl29ud43g58o3ol77plid32c3ckkt3t (AT) 4ax (DOT) com>,
<"nobody (AT) nowhere (DOT) net"> wrote:

Quote:

Smell the power supply. If it smells like something is burned,
probably it is.

That figures <g>

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Please help with dead system

IBM PC Systems Discussions about IBM PC computer & clone systems. (comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.systems)

Re: Please help with dead system - 11-21-2006 , 07:25 AM

Re: Please help with dead system - 11-22-2006 , 07:57 PM

Re: Please help with dead system - 11-22-2006 , 11:13 PM

Re: Please help with dead system - 11-23-2006 , 10:32 PM

Re: Please help with dead system - 11-28-2006 , 07:13 AM

Re: Please help with dead system - 11-28-2006 , 07:13 AM

Re: Please help with dead system - 12-10-2006 , 10:02 PM