Upgrading a scientific instument computer

Hi,

I'm looking for advice on upgrading a scientific instument computer
(GC/MS). The instrument uses three ISA (AT) PC controller boards. The
instrument PC boards use fixed IRQ's 5 and 9. I'd like to upgrade to a
fast Pentium computer running WinXP. The candidate computer must have
three ISA (AT) slots available and IRQ's 5 and 9 must be available for
reservation. I don't think that IRQ 5 is a problem but I think IRQ 9
might be a problem. It seems that in modern computers IRQ 9 is used
for a Microsoft ACPI compliant system(Advanced Configuration and Power
Interface). Never the less, I'm sure others have been able to upgrade
the computer system of this instrument. The instrument computer would
be in use on a continuous basis so power management is not desired.

How would I go about looking for a computer system with a BIOS that
would allow me to assign IRQ's 5 and 9 to ISA (AT) boards (and turn
ACPI off in necessary)?

BTW, the computer also needs to communicate with other parts of the
instrument system with serial ports COM1 and COM2, but I think that
COM ports could be easily provided.

In

ACPI off in necessary)?

Not asking in a Linux newsgroup would be a good start.

d.086 (AT) hotmail (DOT) com wrote:

Hi,

I'm looking for advice on upgrading a scientific instument computer
(GC/MS). The instrument uses three ISA (AT) PC controller boards. The
instrument PC boards use fixed IRQ's 5 and 9. I'd like to upgrade to a
fast Pentium computer running WinXP. The candidate computer must have
three ISA (AT) slots available and IRQ's 5 and 9 must be available for
reservation. I don't think that IRQ 5 is a problem but I think IRQ 9
might be a problem. It seems that in modern computers IRQ 9 is used
for a Microsoft ACPI compliant system(Advanced Configuration and Power
Interface). Never the less, I'm sure others have been able to upgrade
the computer system of this instrument. The instrument computer would
be in use on a continuous basis so power management is not desired.

How would I go about looking for a computer system with a BIOS that
would allow me to assign IRQ's 5 and 9 to ISA (AT) boards (and turn
ACPI off in necessary)?

BTW, the computer also needs to communicate with other parts of the
instrument system with serial ports COM1 and COM2, but I think that
COM ports could be easily provided.

Here are some possibles; all look expensive.

http://www.crystalpc.com/products.as...FQM8IgodREn-1g
http://www.itox.com/
http://www.nextag.com/computer-isa-slot/search-html
http://www.advantech.com/ePlatform/EC/

d.086 (AT) hotmail (DOT) com wrote in news:1179444259.747071.82810
@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com:

l..]

It seems that in modern computers IRQ 9 is used
for a Microsoft ACPI compliant system(Advanced Configuration and Power
Interface). Never the less, I'm sure others have been able to upgrade
the computer system of this instrument. The instrument computer would
be in use on a continuous basis so power management is not desired.

Uh, this is a Linux newsgroup. You are not likely to find much Windows help
in here.

How would I go about looking for a computer system with a BIOS that
would allow me to assign IRQ's 5 and 9 to ISA (AT) boards (and turn
ACPI off in necessary)?

Try visiting an on topic newsgroup, for starters. Asking a Linux newsgroup
which would be the best Windows computer for you is like asking Mohammad
Ali what kind of socks would make Leon Spinks really look "hot". LOL!

--
~Ohmster
ohmster at ohmster dot com
Put "messageforohmster" in message body
(That is Message Body, not Subject!)
to pass my spam filter.

On 17 May 2007 16:24:19 -0700, d.086 (AT) hotmail (DOT) com put finger to
keyboard and composed:

Hi,

I'm looking for advice on upgrading a scientific instument computer
(GC/MS). The instrument uses three ISA (AT) PC controller boards. The
instrument PC boards use fixed IRQ's 5 and 9. I'd like to upgrade to a
fast Pentium computer running WinXP. The candidate computer must have
three ISA (AT) slots available and IRQ's 5 and 9 must be available for
reservation. I don't think that IRQ 5 is a problem but I think IRQ 9
might be a problem. It seems that in modern computers IRQ 9 is used
for a Microsoft ACPI compliant system(Advanced Configuration and Power
Interface). Never the less, I'm sure others have been able to upgrade
the computer system of this instrument. The instrument computer would
be in use on a continuous basis so power management is not desired.

How would I go about looking for a computer system with a BIOS that
would allow me to assign IRQ's 5 and 9 to ISA (AT) boards (and turn
ACPI off in necessary)?

BTW, the computer also needs to communicate with other parts of the
instrument system with serial ports COM1 and COM2, but I think that
COM ports could be easily provided.

If you are prepared to do just a tiny bit of hacking, then you could
rewire your ISA card to use an IRQ other than 9. In fact I've done
this with an ISA modem. Just cut the trace going to pin B4 of the edge
connector and then run a wire from B4 to your choice of IRQ. If it's
an 8-bit card, then you'll be limited to B21 (IRQ7), B24 (IRQ4), and
B25 (IRQ3). Otherwise, if it's 16-bit, then you could use D3 (IRQ10),
D4 (IRQ11), or D5 (IRQ12). You could also use the higher numbered IRQs
with an 8-bit card if you ran a connecting wire from B4 on the 8-bit
card to D3, D4, or D5 on a 16-bit card, or to the slot connector on
the motherboard.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

On Fri, 18 May 2007 15:42:24 +1000, Franc Zabkar
<fzabkar (AT) iinternode (DOT) on.net> put finger to keyboard and composed:

If you are prepared to do just a tiny bit of hacking, then you could
rewire your ISA card to use an IRQ other than 9. In fact I've done
this with an ISA modem. Just cut the trace going to pin B4 of the edge
connector and then run a wire from B4 to your choice of IRQ.

Sorry, that should read "run a wire from the *trace* at B4 to your
choice of IRQ", not from the *finger* at B4.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc d.086 (AT) hotmail (DOT) com wrote:

Hi,

I'm looking for advice on upgrading a scientific instument computer
(GC/MS). The instrument uses three ISA (AT) PC controller boards. The
instrument PC boards use fixed IRQ's 5 and 9. I'd like to upgrade to a
fast Pentium computer running WinXP. The candidate computer must have
three ISA (AT) slots available and IRQ's 5 and 9 must be available for
reservation. I don't think that IRQ 5 is a problem but I think IRQ 9
might be a problem. It seems that in modern computers IRQ 9 is used
for a Microsoft ACPI compliant system(Advanced Configuration and Power
Interface). Never the less, I'm sure others have been able to upgrade
the computer system of this instrument. The instrument computer would
be in use on a continuous basis so power management is not desired.

How would I go about looking for a computer system with a BIOS that
would allow me to assign IRQ's 5 and 9 to ISA (AT) boards (and turn
ACPI off in necessary)?

BTW, the computer also needs to communicate with other parts of the
instrument system with serial ports COM1 and COM2, but I think that
COM ports could be easily provided.

Since ISA is not mainstream anynore, you will likely have to get an
industrial PC mainboard. These are still available with ISA,
for exactly the type of reason you need one. These boards are
more expensive, but from my experience have the type of support
were you will get an answer from the manufacturer about the
type of question you have within days. It might be in bad english,
but it should be written by an engineer that actually understands
the question.

So have a look at industrial PC board offerings out there.
For example the NEX 716VL2G is avaliable from www.nexcom.com.tw
and has three ISA slots.

Arno

d.086 (AT) hotmail (DOT) com writes:

Hi,

I'm looking for advice on upgrading a scientific instument computer
(GC/MS). The instrument uses three ISA (AT) PC controller boards. The
instrument PC boards use fixed IRQ's 5 and 9. I'd like to upgrade to a
fast Pentium computer running WinXP. The candidate computer must have

You are asking this in a Linux group why?
If you want to know if Linux could handle this better than Windows could--
almost certainly. You have the ability to write your own drivers, to let
them do what they will, and loads of examples of how to do it.

three ISA (AT) slots available and IRQ's 5 and 9 must be available for

That is going to be hard, since ISA has gone the way of the dodo.

reservation. I don't think that IRQ 5 is a problem but I think IRQ 9
might be a problem. It seems that in modern computers IRQ 9 is used
for a Microsoft ACPI compliant system(Advanced Configuration and Power
Interface). Never the less, I'm sure others have been able to upgrade
the computer system of this instrument. The instrument computer would
be in use on a continuous basis so power management is not desired.

Well, perhaps you should talk with the manufacturer of those boards to find
out what others have done.

How would I go about looking for a computer system with a BIOS that
would allow me to assign IRQ's 5 and 9 to ISA (AT) boards (and turn
ACPI off in necessary)?

BTW, the computer also needs to communicate with other parts of the
instrument system with serial ports COM1 and COM2, but I think that
COM ports could be easily provided.

I'm looking for advice on upgrading a scientific instument computer
(GC/MS). The instrument uses three ISA (AT) PC controller boards. The
instrument PC boards use fixed IRQ's 5 and 9. I'd like to upgrade to a
fast Pentium computer running WinXP. The candidate computer must have
three ISA (AT) slots available and IRQ's 5 and 9 must be available for
reservation. I don't think that IRQ 5 is a problem but I think IRQ 9
might be a problem. It seems that in modern computers IRQ 9 is used
for a Microsoft ACPI compliant system(Advanced Configuration and Power
Interface).

not that modern computers I guess :-)

Historically there are different behaviors of ACPI in different ACPI-
aware operating systems and different ACPI-aware PC hardware.

What you describe could be true about ACPI in Windows 98 maybe, on pre-
APIC hardware. IMO, Windows XP behaves just fine (and so does Linux)
specifically on hardware that contains an IO APIC - that's all Intel
chipsets
from i845 and above, including the i852/855 mobile north bridge
combined with an ICH4-M or 6300ESB south bridge. The on-chip IO APIC
is a part of the south bridge, so I should've written ICH4(M) and
above :-)

With the IO APIC, I believe the IRQ9 has no special meaning, the other
interrupt sources are usually spread evenly among IRQ's 16-23. If
there is an APIC and yet IRQ9 is used by one (or more) PCI devices,
such as the USB ports, it should be possible to move them elsewhere by
reserving IRQ9 for "Legacy ISA" in the BIOS Setup. Modern Windows/
Linux do their APIC-based interrupt routing based on BIOS-provided
ACPI/MPS tables, that's why the BIOS reservation works.

I believe that any motherboard / PICMG CPU board with ISA capability
must have a menu in the BIOS, which allows you to give up individual
legacy IRQ numbers selectively to PCI/ISA PnP or reserve them for
legacy ISA (the truly dumb bus that has no IRQ auto-negotiation
capabilities). E.g., in the Award BIOSes that are present on most
Advantech industrial PC hardware, this menu is called "PCI/PnP
Configuration". I don't have a screenshot, but right now I've checked
on a live Advantech PCI-6187 that IRQ9 is eligible for this
reservation to legacy ISA, and I believe it would actually work.

Note that if you can find some ATX motherboards with ISA still on the
market, they'll be industrial models, which is not a problem, but
secondly they'll likely require a Socket 478 CPU - some P4 or P4/
Celeron. These CPU's have been off the biege-box market for maybe a
year. You'll be able to get them from some vendor of industrial PC
hardware, at a premium. Perhaps most importantly, they are power
hungry and tend to run rather hot, the higher-end models can present a
problem to your PC case's ventilation. They are enough to run Windows
XP, but the throughput of chipsets such as i845 or any other of the
i8xx family is nowadays nothing to write home about. All of this
applies to the aforementioned Nexcom ATX board and e.g. some Advantech
products, such as AIMB-740 or PCA-6186 / PCA-6187. Further, if you
take this route, note that there were two sorts of P4 CPUs in
Socket478 - and e.g. the i845 chipset doesn't support the newer-
generation P4 CPU's with Prescott core, though the socket is the same
(i865/875 does support Prescott). If you observe those caveats, you
should have a perfectly proven and stable system.

Next, the aforementioned Nexcom board is perhaps the only ATX
motherboard with 3 ISA slots for the P4 CPU (note that the chipset is
i845). If you want a better chipset or even better CPU, you'll need to
consider the PICMG1.0 form factor (CPU board + passive backplane, with
ISA in the picture). The PICMG backplanes don't fit into regular ATX
chassises, so you'd need a new chassis too (probably 19"/4U rackmount,
though smaller boxes are possible, too). As for chassises and
backplanes, I have lots of experience with Advantech stuff.
http://www.advantech.com/products/Mo...6OD&BU=NCG&PD=
As for PICMG1.0 CPU boards, let me mention the following models:

1) the Advantech PCA-6189 for the Pentium M / Dothan. The Dothan CPU
is a previous generation of mobile Intel CPU's (for notebooks) - it
has enough CPU horsepower to run Windows XP, it has more power per
clock cycle than the P4 (Netburst), so that although it runs at lower
nominal clock rates than the P4, it's not all that feeble. It does not
have a Netburst core, its direct ancestor is the Pentium III, and its
direct heir is perhaps the Core/Core2 CPU. Most importantly, it runs
quite cool - you won't have a problem with heat dissipation, which has
positive impact on overall reliability of the computer. Unfortunately,
as far as I know, it's off the biege-box shelves at the moment too, so
you'd have to buy it from Advantech or some other "embedded" vendor.
Not that much of a problem if you'd be buying PICMG hardware anyway.
http://www.advantech.com/products/Mo...6J7&BU=NCG&PD=

2) recently there have been several announcements of PICMG 1.0 CPU
cards for the Core2Duo CPU's in LGA775 socket. All of these are based
on the i945 chipset, which is the lowest stock chipset for the C2D -
there are no PICMG 1.0 CPU boards with the i965 or i3000 series. But
at least finally it's C2D, which is a current off-the-shelf CPU :-)
Among these boards, I have experience with the WSB-9454 by IEI. The
manual does list IRQ9 as eligible for ISA reservation, BTW.
http://www.iei.com.tw/en/product_IPC.asp?model=WSB-9454

Pentium 4 or Pentium D (any Netburst CPU) in LGA775 are IMO not worth
the bother anymore, though PICMG boards do exist for them. C2D eats
less and is more powerful.

If you decide to use some LGA775 CPU, consider also ordering a more
sturdy heatsink than what's "boxed" with Intel LGA775 CPU's.
Specifically, the heatsink body and fan are not a problem, but I have
objections against the plastic flippers that you ram into mounting
holes in the motherboard, and that are supposed to hold the heavy
heatsink. There are heatsinks with metal screws (M3 thread I believe),
supplied with a bottom-side mounting pad (with metal nuts molded in)
that gets stuck from the downside of the CPU board. Examples:

Spire quadroflow
http://www.spirecoolers.com/main/product_cpu.asp?p=14

Some CoolerMaster products
http://www.coolermaster.com/index.ph...st&p_class=114

If you happen to opt for any PICMG board with an Intel "mobile"
chipset, i.e. a chipset specifically designed for notebooks, be aware
that the stock/desktop Windows driver has an interesting feature,
where it falls back to the (internal) LVDS interface for direct LCD
attachment, if there's no VGA monitor attached at the time of boot -
and keeps the setting across reboots. If that's a problem, consider
using the Intel "XP embedded" driver. It works fine in classic desktop
XP. Obviously the desktop chipsets don't suffer from this "feature".

If you ever need to use an ISA board that uses memory-mapped IO, i.e.
needs a straight-through memory window, you may have a problem finding
such an available free window on modern ISA-capable CPU board. Maybe
this is due to the fact that i8xx chipsets and above don't have ISA in
the standard functionality, so that board vendors have to add external
PCI-to-ISA bridges (such as the ITE 8888) - another big chip on the
CPU board, that handles the ISA part of the PICMG 1.0 slot connector.
Or maybe it's just because there's a lot of memory-mapped stuff in a
modern PC, don't know exactly. I have to say that in all cases where a
customer had a problem to find a free ISA MMIO window, I was able to
find one - I used memory maps from Linux as a clue, and although these
are sometimes a bit mis-reported, I've always been able to start from
those and find a valid block of 2kB or 4kB of memory that wasn't
jammed by the CPU board.
Note that ISA MMIO hardware has always been rare - I remember some
voice-processing boards and X.25/sync serial network boards. If you
don't know what this is, it doesn't apply to you.

As for IRQ9 vs. ACPI: I've seen IRQ11 heavily abused on some APIC-less
ACPI-aware systems. IRQ9 also does appear in the Windows "resouce
lists" often multiple times, but I don't think it should be a problem
to reserve it in the BIOS, despite the fact that this is traditionally
"cascaded" from IRQ2. Perhaps this cascading is overridden by ACPI
+APIC, I don't know for sure...

If you're switching from DOS or DOS-based Windows to Windows XP, note
that any legacy software based on direct hardware access won't work
anymore. You'll need Windows NT/2000/XP drivers for your ISA hardware,
and you'll need application software that's written to use those
Windows drivers. In the absence of Windows drivers, you can work
around the problem using some general-purpose library like DLportIO,
but that won't allow you to use IRQ handling (no way to hook up a
handler from user space)...

BTW, the computer also needs to communicate with other parts of the
instrument system with serial ports COM1 and COM2, but I think that
COM ports could be easily provided.

not on desktop boards anymore. Perfectly allright on any "industrial"

motheboard or PICMG CPU board. If one or both COM's are not on the
rear bracket, there are always headers inside on the CPU board, and an
additional COM bracket is a standard accessory, with cable pigtails
that match the onboard COM headers. Check the manual of your selected
hardware.

Frank Rysanek